Talk:Nativity of Jesus

Do Matthew's & Luke's Nativity Accounts Really Contradict?

I would like to take issue with the statement that the accounts of the Nativity found in Matthew & Luke cannot be reconciled. I believe they can. To do so, we must look at them separately in a timeline. On that timeline, I would propose that Luke's account is of the actual birth, some time around 6 BCE, while Matthew's account is from two years later around 4 BCE, the time of Herod the Great's death.

Luke simply states that Joseph, residing in Nazareth at the time, is compelled to go to Bethlehem since that is his family's home town which was a requirement of a census. There are no references as to why or how long he had been there. Luke states only that his journey Bethlehem began in Nazareth where he had married a local girl named Mary. As his wife, Mary journeyed with him even though she was 8-9 months pregnant. They arrive in Bethlehem, Mary gives birth and local shepherds visit them claiming they had been instructed to do so by a host of angels.

Two things to keep in mind. Joseph was from Bethlehem and Mary was from Nazareth. That means they each had family in their town of origin. It seems to me that eventually Joseph and Mary decided to stay put and take advantage of the natural familial support structure already in place because of Joseph's roots there.

Advance two more years. A star had appeared in the sky that peaked the interest of a number of Magi who began calculating its meaning and a destination that might provide the missing details as to whom to worship as a result of the star's appearance. That, having been accomplished, they choose a number of representatives to investigate. The entire process took approximately two years.

During that time, Joseph establishes his business or perhaps joins the family business and the two enjoy whatever other Bethlehem residents enjoy...home and family and community. Jesus is now two years old.

Suddenly, a caravan of Magi arrives with their astrological tale of wonder along with a warning to get out of Dodge. An angel puts his stamp of approval on the idea and off to Egypt they go. There, they are conveniently and safely out of range of Herod's wrath.

Some time later, they hear of Herod's death and begin to ponder their next step. They dare not go back to Bethlehem which is in the very shadow of Herod's successor, but where to go? Well, Mary has a familial support structure already in place in Nazareth. Plus Nazareth is outside of Herod Antipas' jurisdiction. So they go to Nazareth and live peaceably for another 30 plus years until the time is right for Jesus to begin his ministry.

I rest my case. Josefthe6000yearoldman (talk) 16:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Your whole approach is wrong, see WP:OR. You should WP:CITE WP:RS instead of doing your own original research. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

birth date of Jesus

On reading the article on the birth date of Jesus, I saw that it was stated that scripture does not specify a birth date for Jesus.

On reading Luke I saw clear specifications as follows:

Luke provides a step by step process to determine the date of birth of Jesus as follows:

Luke 3:1 says that it was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar.

Luke 3:23 says that Jesus himself began to be thirty years of age when he was baptized.

Wikipedia gives Tiberius Caesar as ruling from AD 14 to AD 37. This means that in the 15^th year of his reign it would be AD 29. So for Jesus to be 30 years total requires 28 years and part of AD 29 as well as 1 BC and part of 2 BC. So Jesus was born sometime in 2 BC.

There are additional indicators to specify the exact date of birth:

Luke 1:8 says that Zacharias was serving as priest.

Luke 1:23 says that when he was done he returned to his wife and conceived John the Baptist.

Luke 1:26 says that it was the sixth Jewish month. The sixth month of the sacred year is Elul.

Luke 1:24 says that Zacharias wife, John's mother, Elizabeth hid herself 5 months (150 days).

That means that John was conceived in Nisan (the sixth month minus five months). The first opportunity for Zacharias to beget John would have been when Passover ended on 22 Nisan 3758, 0003-04-07 BC, Day 1720423. Dates in this section are Julian. It would have been AFTER sundown (the start of the next Jewish day and so no longer Passover).

A typical pregnancy due date is 40 weeks (7 X 40 = 280 days). Adding 280 to John's conception at Day 1720423, gives his birth date at 7 Shevat 3759, 0002-01-12 BC, Day 1720703.

A moral picture is presented in Luke 1:20 and Luke 1:61-64 of Zacharias being struck dumb until John is named. By this the Angel there points to the significance of the naming days. The naming ceremony for a Jewish child is not until the 8^th day after birth. For John that would be 15 Shevat 3759. That date is Tu BiShavat celebrated as the New Year of Trees.

Luke 1:36 says that Elizabeth was in her 6^th month at the time that Mary visited while already pregnant. Luke 1:26 says that this was during the sixth month, Elul. The end of the 5 months (150 days) that Elizabeth hid herself would be 24 Elul 3758. So Mary conceived sometime from 24 Elul through 28 Elul. 29 Elul is excluded because Mary had to travel to Elizabeth's house in another town per Luke 1:39

Of these 5 possible dates for the conception, 24 Elul stands out. 24 Elul is the evening part of the first day of creation (a day is evening followed by morning). The anniversary of the first day of creation is very appropriate for the miraculous conception of Jesus.

So if 24 Elul 3758, 0003-09-04 BC, Day 1720573 is Jesus's conception day, then adding 280 to 1720573 gives his birth date as 09 Tammuz 3759, 0002-06-11 BC, Day 1720853. His naming day is then 17 Tammuz 3759. 17 Tammuz is celebrated as the Fast of Tammuz, for the destruction of the 2 Tablets of the Ten Commandments.

Luke 1:56 says that about 3 months later Mary went home.

Hanukkah, 25 Kislev 3759, is 89 days after Jesus conception or “about 3 months”.

Herod the Great is stated to have died in either 4 BC or 1 BC or 1 AD. Herod could have died in 1 BC or 1 AD.

Another issue is the order to go to one's place of origin for a census. There was one census in 7 BC and one in 6 AD, but there was another called the Pater Patriae in 2 BC. That one could be the one referred to in Luke 2:1

As for the Star of Bethlehem (see under planetary conjunction). "In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event".

1. ^ Luke 3:1
2. ^ Luke 3:23
3. ^ Luke 1:8
4. ^ Luke 1:23
5. ^ Jump up to:^{a b} Luke 1:26
6. ^ Luke 1:24
7. ^ Luke 1:20
8. ^ Luke 1:61–64
9. ^ Luke 1:36
10. ^ Luke 1:39
11. ^ Luke 1:56
12. ^ Luke 2:1

Afellowservant (talk) 03:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Your whole approach is wrong, see WP:OR. You should WP:CITE WP:RS instead of doing your own original research. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I apologize, but you don't seem to be reading the same Bible. Luke says that in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius "the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness". Not that he was born in the year, which is 62 CE.

Luke 3:23 states that Jesus was "about" 30, not that he was 30. Big difference.

Luke 1:26 refers to Elizabeth's "6th month" of pregnancy, not 6th month of the year. No clue is given as to the month or year of John the Baptist's conception or birth. Zechariah was a generic rabbi who was chosen by lot to serve his turn in the Temple in Jerusalem. Such terms were typically only one week & we don't know for sure what week or month that was or even how often rabbis we called upon to serve. That's a lot of stuff we don't know to so specific.

As far as what kind of celestial event the Magi saw, all we have, again, is speculation. There are a number of plausible theories, none of which have been proven correct.

June 17, 2 BCE was 2 years after Herod the Great died, so unless his ghost met with the Magi & ordered the Slaughter of the Innocent, your calculations are off by at least 2-4 years.

I appreciate the work you put into this, but your conclusions are based on some really unreliable assumptions. 2600:1700:4AB0:4CE0:354F:3482:4650:54AE (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

You are probably right that what I presented will not be accepted by Wikipedia.

I have no clue what you mean by 62 CE. What I did was just simple arithmetic. Start at AD 14 add 15 years to get AD 29, then go back about 30 years to 2 BC. I never said He was 30, just that His age when baptized was closer to 30 than 29 or 31.

Luke 1:26 referring to the sixth month is common in scripture for identifying a month. Also it makes no sense for the author to repeat himself at Luke 1:36 if he had just said that it was Elizabeth's sixth month.

As far as a "Christmas Star" goes, it is only necessary to demonstrate that a suitable event did occur on or about the birth time.

For Herod, there is a lot more smoke out there than proof of anything. What I present is not outside all the mentioned bounds.

I have what I consider mathematical proof that the conception date of Jesus is as stated. I invite you to look at my web site at Tribulation2033-2040.com. This proof I did not deem acceptable for presenting as part of this because it requires about 10 pages of explanation.

I would welcome your advice when you have seen the web site. Thank you for your input. Afellowservant (talk) 03:50, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

C.R.S

Narrate the birth of Jesus 197.211.59.59 (talk) 15:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

When was The Adoration of the Shepherds painted?

In the Wikipedia article the painting is dated 1632, in Wikimedia Commons the date appears as c. 1650. I cannot find enough evidence for the most correct date, but I do not think there should be a difference between the two sources, yes? Mieliestronk (talk) 16:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Changed to c. 1650 per the image file. Johnbod (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Revert

The mainstream academic view is that the two birth narratives from the New Testament contradict each other. So much for accepting both as historical. See e.g. McClellan, Dan On contradictions between Matthew & Luke’s nativities on YouTube. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)